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Who is you favourite western philosopher?
genetics and religion continued..
O5Irjd
No.133868
DO NOT KANG or ABUSE ANY CASTE IN THIS THREAD PLEASE.
vjZM0d
No.133871
>>133868(OP)
I could not even read the last one properly, but I did notice the one post specifying how a lord of North Western Brahmin families don't share the paternal linage with rest.
This actually probes how half of them took Gauda and Saraswat status by pulling it out of their ass. Mind you this is not an abuse, this is just about maintaining sanctity of religion and it's principles. Our ancestors would have such folks flayed if they had our technology to detect the genetics of a person.
tkiBFl
No.133873
>>133868(OP)
>rajputs come from huns.
This is the unsubstantiated claim i keep hearing but noone has evidence. You dont need to be so retarded. We know that nobility existed in feudal times in every culture and village. Rajputs were simply that nobility. You will find rajputs spread across north india and they have nothing in common except the fact that their ancestors were zamindars. You guys complicate history with your retarded theories.
RyZE43
No.133875
https://bharatchan.com/board/b/thread/133682#post-133863
Lineage and ethnicity is a scientific fact (not religious).
Faith. Gotra and Varna system is devised for its upkeeping i.e. prevention of dilution of identities/chain-breaking of patri-lineage and improvization of genetics (eugenics) across long term by employing culture (religion) as an anchor.
RyZE43
No.133877
2MdQXt
No.133878
>>133868(OP)
What's the matter?
RyZE43
No.133880
>>133873
rajputs emerged from those places where hunas ruled. They started emerging exactly right after and in those places where Hunnic kingdoms disintegrated.
Nobody (even Hindutvachuds) has doubt about this fact that Rajputs are related to Hunas.
RyZE43
No.133882
>>133878
an insecure mod archived that thread
4WRPAG
No.133883
>>133882
that Op is known to be a caste and religion baiter
RyZE43
No.133885
>>133871
>If blood is all it took, then god knows how many Dalit families now come from illegitimate whore of Rajput and other Kshatriya families. Why do you not go and give them, the Rajput status too?
read this
https://bharatchan.com/board/b/thread/133682#post-133853
>mt DNA doesn't mattered during Vedic era. Its only when Manusmriti appeared in the scene the brahmins stop marrying (fucking) non aryan females i.e. females of low steppe ancestry and dark skin colour with no known brahmin forefather.
RyZE43
No.133887
>>133883
but that thread wasn't about his usual baiting.
tkiBFl
No.133888
>>133871
Because you are applying your retarded mindset to those people back in the day. They werent inteterested in steppe aasi bullshit like you guys are. Yes tribes existed and some tribes were superior in intellect and became UCs but it had not much to do with steppe aasi haplogroup kang you fuckers do which is why aggarwal baniyas and rajputs in UP are high AASI whereas chamars in haryana himachal are high steppe. Also caste synthesis was complicated. Not all castes are a result of founders effect many emerged as trade guilds or professional associations so will have genetic diversity.
4WRPAG
No.133889
>>133887
but we cannot converse in his threads
I support mods on this one, that guy deserves what he gets after what he has been doing for months
tkiBFl
No.133895
>>133880
How does it show rajputs descend from huns? Any cultural linguistic evidence? Hunnic rule was barely 15 years long and mihirkula the hun was defeated by Yashodharman aulikar and huns were chased back to kashmir. Rajputra term has vedic roots and nobility existed in vedic times as well. What makes you think we didnt have zamindars/lords back in the day before huns. Its your typical feudal system.
RyZE43
No.133897
>>133888
you are right but I don't agree with your bigger narrative. You are ignoring the fact that rigveda always gave importance to the concept of lineage. So the point where you say that
>They werent inteterested in steppe aasi bullshit like you guys are
is giving off an impression to the normies here that they didn't even cared about lineage
but my post here >>133885 concludes it aptly
>>mt DNA doesn't mattered during Vedic era. Its only when Manusmriti appeared in the scene the brahmins stop marrying (fucking) non aryan females i.e. females of low steppe ancestry and dark skin colour with no known brahmin forefather.
RyZE43
No.133899
>>133895
r u rajput ?
I don't know whats dishonorable about being descended from Hunas.
Most historical, genetic and archaeological (both left wing and right wing) agree with this conclusion.
Why are you even worried about this ?
>Rajputra term has vedic roots and nobility existed in vedic times as well
those weren't the same rajputas just like how the modern Yadavs don't descend from the ancient Yadavas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yadava
tldr: RAJPUTS ARE NOT RIGVEDIC ERA PEOPLE
also Kambojas who are considered as shudras in modern times are much older than many dwija castes of modern India.
tkiBFl
No.133900
>>133880
>Nobody (even Hindutvachuds) has doubt about this fact that Rajputs are related to Hunas.
Forget hindutvachuds even mainstream historians concede that rajputs emerged from rajputization and sanskritization of various unrelated landowning nobility. Rajputs arent a homogenous tribe like jats, dogras, pashtuns. Its a heterogenous grouping. They are the nobility of their respective regions which is why you have dogra rajputs, pahadi rajputs etc. In fact adoption of rajput title outside rajasthan(rajputana) happened during british era for caste census. Prior to that the generic title thakur(lord) was used.
tkiBFl
No.133901
>>133899
No i am not a rajput. I just cant stand people spouting fairytales as if they were real.
4WRPAG
No.133902
>>133897
Manusmriti 10.43–44
10.43
पौण्ड्राच्चोडद्राविडकाश्मीरकम्बोजयवनशकाः ।
परदाः पालवाश्चैव चीनाः शुलिकदारदाः ॥
10.44
एते क्षत्रियजात्याः स्रष्टा लोके स्वयम्भुवाः ।
ब्राह्मणानवमन्यन्ते तेन तेऽपसवो स्मृताः ॥
10.43
Pauṇḍrāś Cōḍa-Drāviḍa-Kāśmīra-Kamboja-Yavana-Śakāḥ,
Paradāḥ Pālavāś Caiva Cīnāḥ Śulika-Dāradāḥ.
10.44
Ete kṣatriya-jātyāḥ sraṣṭā loke svayambhuvāḥ,
Brāhmaṇān avamanyante tena te 'pasavo smṛtāḥ.
RyZE43
No.133904
>>133902
what about it ?
4WRPAG
No.133905
>>133904
its about kambojas
RyZE43
No.133908
>>133905
oh. Even sushruta, charaka and panini wrote about many tribes/ethnicities of ancient north India.
MBWJui
No.134008
>>133900
There are quite a lot of linking factors of these mentioned castes
Check r/rajputana for more details
f1VTLF
No.134010
>>134008
Like? Its usually just we wuzzing and fancy claims of ancestry from gods or historical kings with no evidence.
RyZE43
No.134012
MBWJui
No.134014
RyZE43
No.134016
>>133900
>Rajputs arent a homogenous tribe like jats, dogras, pashtuns
1. dogras are Rajputs, one of their Dynasty (Jamwal) is even mentioned here with a map representing other clans of mountain rajputs of that region.
https://www.indianrajputs.com/dynasties.php
2. Jats aren't homogneous. Their genetics vary a lot (Khyber, Baloch, Punjab, UP, Rajasthan)
3. Pashtuns have their lineage records which shows them to be of multiple origins. Also their y-dna Haplogroups vary a lot. See picrel
4. Rajputs aren't homogeneous as your correctly mentioned.
RyZE43
No.134017
>>134014
>to other rajputs
some of them are legitimitely linked through ancient patrilienage branching and some of them are just made up.
MBWJui
No.134018
>>134017
that can be said for all forward castes, lots of larping Bamans, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas these days
MBWJui
No.134019
>>134016
thank you for saying this!
f1VTLF
No.134021
>>134014
>check the sub, you will find many links, generically, via folk culture, gotras, linages etc.
Thats pajeet standard for historical investigation. Such kind of we wuzzing will be laughed at by actual academics. Its not that different from mujeets kanging about being arab or descendant of prophet.
MBWJui
No.134023
>>134021
Oral traditions are a valid way of preserving history, documentation was never too prevalent in India
f1VTLF
No.134024
>>134016
Source: indianrajputs
Yaar pajeet. Thats not how you do historical investigation. Find primary contemporary sources. Anyone can make late claims of descent.
RyZE43
No.134025
>>134018
yes almost all of them.
Interestingly northwestern castes like Khatris, Jats etc are better than Brahmins in this regard if were solely consider Y-Dna as the basis of caste identities.
RyZE43
No.134027
>>134024
that website is managed by a rajput belonging to a royality himself. I am hopeful that he can back his claims by historical records if asked to do so.
Btw all he is claiming is political alliance not genetic alliance so I don't see much problem in trusting him in this regard.
Maratha clans claim association on similar lines.
RyZE43
No.134028
>>134019
what ?
RyZE43
No.134029
>>134023
word of mouth can't be trusted. By this method even a Andamanese tribal can claim that his forefathers ruled Roman Empire.
MBWJui
No.134031
>>134025
I mean stealing surnsmes etc
MBWJui
No.134035
>>134028
>>134016
this 👆
>>134029
In India it has been a valid way for Transmitting information even vedas used to learnt and transmitted orally for a long time
And if we are talking about fabrication then nothing can be trusted, you can make fake studies in today's day and age, forget about making mere claims through scripts in past
f1VTLF
No.134036
>>134027
The biggest redpill is that dogras and pahadis didnt even consider themselves as rajputs up until british rule when caste census happened and they started calling themselves rajput and we wuzzing about being related to rajputana.
MBWJui
No.134037
>>134036
nopee it was a misinterpretation by brits due to lack of knowledge of castes
RyZE43
No.134038
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/genetics/articles/10.3389/fgene.2017.00121/full
>>134031
despite all this caste identities aren't as loose as they might come off after this conversation. There are a lot of factors that are responsible for genetic proximity of the members of a caste through other means as well.
RyZE43
No.134039
>>134036
>dogras and pahadis didnt even consider themselves as rajputs
can't say about pahadis in general but I'd like to see a source about your claims regarding Dogras since I have read the opposite of it from Kashmiri Pandit historians.
f1VTLF
No.134040
>>134035
You are coping. The reason vedas are trusted is because due to linguistic evidence which confirms that vedic sanskrit is archaic related to avestan and has been preserved to this day. Also we have manuscripts and fragments of written vedic verses as corroborating evidence. Oral tales can be trusted but you need to find corroborating evidence.
f1VTLF
No.134042
>>134037
Yes literal caste census that recorded the phenomenon of rajputization cant be trusted but baseless claims of we wuzzing shouls be trusted. Pajeet logic.
MBWJui
No.134043
>>134042
it was a misunderstanding on their part, brits had many such cases
btw bro, you are coping very hard
MBWJui
No.134044
>>134040
we have genetic and other written evidences too
RyZE43
No.134045
>>134035
I'd put oral evidence on a lower level than genetic and archaeological evidences.
>even vedas used to learnt and transmitted orally
no wonder modern linguists have proved that different sections of Rigveda have been produced over a large interval of time with some sections even containing words of Dravidian roots.
RyZE43
No.134046
>>134040
this is true as well
MBWJui
No.134047
>>134038
I know, mainly because of same caste marriage and different gotra marriage, this prevents inbreeding and outbreeding at the same time
RyZE43
No.134048
>>134042
>caste census that recorded the phenomenon of rajputization
nope many other castes claimed rajput ties but not all claims were accepted by the OG Rajputs of Rajastan.
f1VTLF
No.134049
>>134044
Mind sharing any written evidence?
MBWJui
No.134051
>>134045
Vedas were a product of cultural exchange Imo, its proven that aryan heartland was in zagros, not sinashta andronovo, IVC was mix of these people ig
RyZE43
No.134052
>>134043
this reminded if the modern Yadavs who were invented by british by consolidating different cow herder communities of India under a single banner
RyZE43
No.134053
>>134051
>its proven that aryan heartland was in zagros, not sinashta andronovo
the general scientific consensus favors the eurasian steppes as far as the origins of Yamanaya people is considered.
Don't forget the Indo-European pantheon of gods and the affinity of Indo-European languages plus the genetic affiliation of Indo-Europeans as well.
RyZE43
No.134056
>>134031
>stealing surnsmes
the problem occurs when people of a relatively rarer haplogroup start living alonside with people of different haplogroups. Brahmins carried the Haplogroup R1a deep into the lands of India beyond Indus in pre-historic period and then into Dravida during ancient period, consequently some IVS people and then dravidias started larping as Brahmins to raise their status and thus their Haplogroups got assimilated into the Brahmin fold.
f1VTLF
No.134057
>>134052
They werent invented by the brits. In fact you should be happy that brits wrote down stuff extensively due to which we know unambiguously about indian society of the time. Its due to british records we know that ahirs started calling themselves yadav in 19th century as part of attempted sanskritization. Just like pahadis started calling themselves rajput.
RyZE43
No.134058
>>134056
contrastingly Jats etc mostly lived among the people who already had majority R1a Y Dna ancestry so evenb after mixing with the R1a natives of earlier aryan settlers their overall Y-Dna pool didn't got spoiled much.
Its mainly the Brahmins who faced the burnt of race-mixing mostly since they were the pioneering settlers.
MBWJui
No.134059
>>134052
Yeah ik that, brits had poor understanding of our system
>>134053
check this thread : https://bharatchan.com/board/b/thread/125424#post-125424
>>134056
RyZE43
No.134062
>>134057
ahirs are in no way historically connected to gwalas or gops of east.
Moreover Ahirs themselves had a gotra systrem within them which was in its initial stages of development before British forcefully rounded them up with other cow herders from diferent parts of trhe country.
Yadav community is fucked up really bad like that of Baniyas as far as the genetics is concerned. The British state is to blame mainly.
see this vid of ahir from Gujarat
does he look genetically or even politically connected to picrel Ahir of Bihar ?
RyZE43
No.134064
>>134059
i read that thread. There is a lot of pseudo scientific Hindutva genetics shilling going on there
MBWJui
No.134065
>>134064
doesn't seem like so to me? do you have any evidences to debunk dyaush's claim
also why do you make hindus the culprit?
RyZE43
No.134067
Hindutva genetics is hopeless.
I will make some other thread on Maratha AASI supremacist RSS some other day
JlICcM
No.134068
>>134067
Kanger spotted.
f1VTLF
No.134069
>>134062
Again its not the fault of brits that castes attempted sanskritization to raise their status. Their job was just to take census. You cant blame brits. At least they documented stuff. Things would have been clearer if pajeets did the same but all they had to offer was baseless fabricated oral legends.
MBWJui
No.134072
>>134067
he debunked this one too
RyZE43
No.134073
>>134065
I never made Hindus culprit.
Dyaush is shilling pseudo science with biased conclusions based on half evidences while completely ignoring the other hard evidences with are greater in numbers.
There has been a little bit of to and fro migrations that happened near the Indus region, thats what all scientics of the world agree upon. Nothing more than that. Sanjeev Sanyal goes a step further by making absurd claims of paintings of Indian horses in Gulf caves to prove that Indians at one point of time conquered even Gulf Arab region.
MBWJui
No.134074
f1VTLF
No.134075
>>134039
There is literally no mention of dogras as rajputs in any historical text up until british era. Even local folklore talks about local king Jambulochan as the founder of the city. No connection with rajputana.
MBWJui
No.134076
>>134073
hmm interesting
RyZE43
No.134077
>>134072
if he did that then I am quite sure that is telling you lies, Since that sample was "allegedly" of a lower quality so it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to make any solid claims in opposite direction regarding that.
RyZE43
No.134079
>>134069
>castes attempted sanskritization to raise their status
which caste didn't ? Even many brahmin gotras aren't considered legit brahmins by other traditional gotras in this regard. ex- Bhumihars, Sakaldwipi, Chitpavan etc
f1VTLF
No.134080
>>134074
Things would have been really bad without brits documenting stuff. Look what sort of fancy claims of origin pajeet castes invent taking advantage of absence of records. Now imagine how bad things would have been if brits didnt recorded stuff that give us a clear picture of indian social dynamics in 19th and early 20th century.
RyZE43
No.134081
>>134075
hmm.. perhaps you might be true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogras#History
I would suspend my opinion on this as for now. There is no point in blindly trusting Rajputs given their history of greed for retention of power at any price, sometimes even honour and faith.
RyZE43
No.134082
>>134068
lurk more
2MdQXt
No.134087
>>134080
yes but it came with a massive price
RyZE43
No.134088
>>134076
yeah population genetics can be interesting.
/r/SouthAsianAncestry is a good sub as far as results are concerned but the mods and few users there are pro-Hindutva and don't want to hear any of the blackpilling narrative so tread carefully if you wish to lurk on that sub.
Most of the posters are chill there since there is no big room for any propaganda there as the results are purely based on science.
ZTc1Jj
No.134090
>>134088
Its only good if you are interested in results, otherwise its filled with retarded kanging and theory craftings
RyZE43
No.134092
>>134059
why are they even quoting individual research papers ? The great learned scientists have already done a lot of studies considering all sorts of evidences that play a role in determining the overall conslusions of those evidences involved.
Cherrypicking individual evidences is more apropaganda than real science.
Most of the Hindutva people love to give oral talks about their theory of Aryan migration but never publish or refute any of the research papers by western scientists.
Europeans unlike Hindutva geneticists are humble enough to accept that Yamanaya brutally raped Europeans into existence.
RSS is an evil organization, they want to destroy Hinduism from within but thats for another thread.
RyZE43
No.134093
>>134090
> filled with retarded kanging and theory craftings
i appreciate their ingeniousness though. They propose theory unaffected from any ideological baggages. Thats refreshing to see.
ZTc1Jj
No.134094
>>134092
>RSS is an evil organization, they want to destroy Hinduism from within but thats for another thread.
I am genuinely interested in what you have to say on this, maybe make a thread on /pol/ if you do ever talk about this
RyZE43
No.134095
>>134094
mods will ban me. They have banned me earlier as well.
ZTc1Jj
No.134096
>>134095
post it on int of 4ch bharat if possible then
